A nearlyfreespeech.net support story

"a masterpiece movie with an absolute turd of an ending"

me: I had a really weird thing happen with my web host today
me: you busy?
really? what happened?
I'm just doing busy work
me: so I've been trying these guys out
me: I took one look at this, and it was perfect -- https://www.nearlyfreespeech.net/about/faq.php
Data Transfers (Bandwidth):      $1.00 per gigabyte
Disk Space (Storage):    $0.01 per megabyte-month
..
In March 2005:
# 22% of our members incurred no costs at all.
# 53% of our members incurred costs of at least $0.01 but less than $1.00. 
..
Do you support CGI? PHP? SSI? Yes, absolutely!
..
The amount of bandwidth you use is carried over as long as it takes until you
accumulate a penny's worth of usage (10,737,418 bytes), [no matter how long it
takes]. Yes, we are happy to host sites like this.
..
You may contact us at any time to close your account and cancel your service.
When you do, we will return the money remaining in your personal bandwidth
account. All of it. You're only responsible for the cost of bandwidth that
you actually use.
..
Q: Do I get interest on my deposit?

No. The costs of such a program would be more than the actual interest
produced. We periodically reevaluate this situation, because we think a web
account that runs forever purely off of its own interest is a pretty cool
idea.
me: How's that for personality? I was impressed.
me: I got an account with them a couple of months ago
me: as a trial they credited my account with 2 cents worth of bandwidth
me: and they're really cool, so that lasts a *long* time.
me: haven't had much time to do anything until this week
me: this week I start trying to use it
me: I'm building a simple service
me: but it requires a new package
me: I can't simply copy binaries over because they're running BSD
me: and they don't have gnu make, all kinds of bs
me: but I really like their cost model and their manifesto
me: so I'm trying to make it work
hmmm
me: my cycle: rsync, try to build, rsync, try to build
me: you already know how I feel about keeping all the files on just one machine :)
me: if I have to upload whole repos in html, that's a lot of files
me: rsync's really the most efficient way..
you would think ... but it's not necessarily
me: I was doing a lot of rsync's but in bytes it was nothing
me: I was literally changing one line and rsync'ing at a time. sending tens of bytes at a time
me: anyway, at some point I get sick of typing in my password all the time
me: so I look at the faq
me: they have some non-standard setup
hmmm
me: say you can't just create a public key, send us a request with your public key
me: so I do that
me: 2 hours later my account dies. ssh disconnected. can't reconnect. and bing..
me: I have mail:
> Could you please setup the following public key to authenticate my
> ssh sessions?

I'm sorry, we're not able to accommodate your request.

Our free trial is for the purpose of trying out our web hosting.  You've had
ample opportunity to do so over the past two months, but it appears that
you're merely using it as public ssh server, which is an explicit violation of
our Terms and Conditions of Service.

We have ended your free trial, and wish you the best of luck in finding a
service more suited to your needs.

Thanks,
Jeff
me: so I basically sent in a support request, and got my account cancelled
wow
me: chapter and verse from their terms of service:
"We may provide a variety of ancillary services from time to time for the
express purpose of facilitating your ability to upload and manage your
Content. You may not use said ancillary services (including but not limited to
ssh access) for any other purpose."
so basically they are willing for things to be uploaded as long as it's a one-time shot
me: is that clear from the terms?
I can see why the rsync - build - rsync model might flag your account with a lot of ssh activity
but they could be more understanding
me: yeah, but they advertise these things
me: they say we have ssh, we have c++, libraries (gcc 2.95 btw, a whole lot of pain)
me: presumably it's for use, right?
right
me: the best part is that ssh is free in their cost model
me: they're like it's so cheap for us we can't be bothered to charge you for it
me: if they'd charged 10x for ssh bandwidth I would prob have been moved to actually fund my account by now. It would *still* knock the socks off the competition cost-wise.
sometimes you have to examine your working model and change it to work within the "system" ... ;)
me: right
me: if I could just figure out what the system was
me: and this is a guy who actually reads documentation
LOL
me: it's pretty clear these guys have intangible costs associated with setting up and pulling down accounts everytime somebody ssh's in.
me: (I think they might be doing something with usermode linux)
me: and I have to take shit because they don't have a way to account for what they give out and they haven't documented the fact that it isn't tangibly accounted for.

me: what's really sick is that I invested a lot of effort in trying to get this package to compile
me: I had been wondering if it made more sense to just go elsewhere where they have linux..
me: guess I had my choice made for me
me: anyway, my response:
Wow, judge, jury and executioner.

It's not clear to me how I'm violating your terms of service. And I wasn't
aware your free trial had a time period. I make a request and get my account
revoked? Not very friendly, that.

For the record I have been using ssh solely to setup a CGI webservice. I don't
otherwise have access to *BSD, so I need to build one tool on your servers.
I've been going through a lot of pain dealing with g++ 2.95 and a non-GNU make
just because I *liked* you guys and the way you operate.

Kartik
me: it's not a big deal
me: I didn't give them money
me: it's just -- they're *so* close to being perfect and then they're *so* stupid
LOL
me: it's like watching a masterpiece movie with an absolute turd of an ending
LOL
me: they had a customer for life here..
me: I suppose there's a lesson here, about doing better by my customers when I have them.. we need better tools to sift through the huge number of parasites that spring up around any commercial enterprise
true ... unfortunately the problem with services like that is that they are basically "free" so there is no obligation for them to pander to anybody's needs (in their minds anyway)
me: no, these guys charge money
me: it's just that I had a trial account with them
oh ...
me: and apparently the fact that I haven't been hooked yet makes it *easier* for them to fuck me over. go figure..
me: they clearly have lots of people trying to get something for nothing, and they don't really have a professional support staff
doesn't actually sound like a company you really want to do business with
me: that's my point -- it *is* a company I want to do business with
me: everything else is perfect
me: I might have just run into a fella who had a bad day
me: they don't have professional 'boilerplate' support staff
me: in order to keep costs low
me: and I've had support requests in the past serviced promptly and efficiently
me: but I guess if you get a person instead of a robot the screwups are magnified as well
LOL
me: :) I can't even bring myself to feel pissed. I'm just so disappointed.
me: i guess I should give up on walmart and get a $100/mo colocated server
me: that way I'm guaranteed I have any tool I need tomorrow and I don't have to deal with stale-gcc/libg++ bullshit
me: (various standard c++ libraries actually changed their class hierarchies since 2.95!)
the comany we use is called icdsoft.com. try them out.
me: ah, thanks

jdw NearlyFreeSpeech.NET Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:20 pm
Well, let's see:
  1. You left out the part where your antics crashed our ssh server and disrupted our paying members.
  2. You left out the part about chmodding your htdocs folder so it couldn't possibly be used for web access, making it clear that web hosting was nowhere on your mind.
  3. You left out the part about two months of free trial ssh access without setting up any functioning websites.
  4. You incorrectly stated that your membership was canceled when in fact only the free trial was canceled.
So, I guess we apologize for, uh, not letting you freeload... enough. Oh, and by the way:
-bash-2.05b$ gmake -v
GNU Make 3.80
Copyright (C) 2002  Free Software Foundation, Inc.
This is free software; see the source for copying conditions.
There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A
PARTICULAR PURPOSE.

me:

Summary: You're judging me based on information I don't have, and there's still only one person even trying to be civil here. Did you read the part about how much I like you? Could that possibly move you to read my criticism and think about it, maybe respond without sarcasm?

  1. I apologize. I didn't know until now that I crashed your server. I notified y'all that I couldn't get in. Y'all didn't tell me what I did wrong when y'all said it was fixed. You never said 'antics' then. And even when my account -- sorry, free account -- was revoked you didn't tell me this previous ticket was related.

    I had this model in my head of some sort of vm setup since it was clear my account vanished when I wasn't using it. Guess I was wrong.

  2. This one took me a while to figure out.
    a) I had the whole /home setup mirrored locally here
    b) I have a cron job that runs at midnight securing directories that are not in a special list.
    c) I hadn't added this directory to my list, and ran rsync at least once after midnight here.
    d) I wasn't ready to go live yet, so I just never noticed.

    I guess it's a bit of a long tale, huh? I'm sure you guys have daily backups. Confirm that my /home/htdocs was in fact world-readable until 24 hours ago.

    Now go back and reread d. *I wasn't ready to go live yet.* Think about that next time you rush to judge someone's actions.

  3. No, I actually said I signed up for this 2 months ago, haven't used it much since. What did I leave out? Again, check your logs, confirm all my activity is in 2 windows a couple of days wide each when I signed up and now. Since when is inactivity an indictable offense? And *again*, I didn't realize my free offer had a time limit. As y'all like repeating, 2 cents goes a long way. There was no reason for me to charge my account yet, was there?

    All y'all have to do is have the initial 2 cents expire after 2 months or something. All I needed was a prod to remind me to pay.

  4. Yes, I suppose you're right I still have an account. So would you be ok with me paying y'all a quarter and crashing your ssh server again? You guys are blindly shooting in the dark without telling me what I'm doing wrong.

    "We have ended your free trial, and wish you the best of luck in finding a service more suited to your needs."
    "antics..paying members.."

    If you don't want me, why is my account relevant?


I really tried to be restrained in my IM log. I was literally making public a conversation with a friend. And I am still trying to be civil. Even though I won't be returning I want to give y'all feedback about a case where your processes have failed you. I *want* to take the time, because I want y'all to be better because y'all are oh sooo close, and the world needs more guys like you.
pj Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:01 pm
doesn't actually sound like a company you really want to do business with
me: that's my point -- it *is* a company I want to do business with
me: everything else is perfect
me: I might have just run into a fella who had a bad day
me: they don't have professional 'boilerplate' support staff
me: in order to keep costs low
me: and I've had support requests in the past serviced promptly and
efficiently
me: but I guess if you get a person instead of a robot the screwups are
magnified as well
LOL
me: :) I can't even bring myself to feel pissed. I'm just so disappointed.
me: i guess I should give up on walmart and get a $100/mo colocated server
So, near perfection isn't good enough, and so instead you're going to go with someone who will...well, ____ you up the ___?
I've been upset with NFSN in the past, but I wasn't about to host my web site elsewhere. A less than perfect web host is still a lot better than a far from perfect web host.

It's not about them not being up to some standard I set. It's about them not wanting me. It's about summary judgement and execution without getting the facts straight or giving others feedback.
jdw Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:45 pm
As far as "you should cut people off" etc etc... There are many things we could do to restrict our service and make it more difficult to exploit. However, most of those things would also restrict legitimate usage. Consequently, we try very hard to be as flexible as possible and trust in people to use good judgment. The good news is that it is quite rare for us to be disappointed.

We are a good company and we try our hardest to provide good services and good service to our members. So go ahead, make all the noise you want. We also trust people researching potential web hosts to examine available evidence, consider the quality and veracity of source information, and reach their own conclusions.


Thanks for softening your tone, jdw. But there's a lot you haven't responded to. Can you see where I'm coming from? Will you still call me a freeloader?

My impression is that your judgement of my actions was influenced by my status as paying vs unpaying. It was a process problem.

http://programming.reddit.com/info/qy9l/comments/cr0kn?context=5&style=nested#cr0kn

I didn't know I was getting a free trial until after I signed up, but they explicitly said "hey, we would like to give you 2 cents. Now sit back and be amazed by how long it lasts." or something to that effect.

The only reason I hadn't charged the account yet was that there was no pressing need to. Is that reasonable?


There are many things we could do to restrict our service and make it more difficult to exploit. However, most of those things would also restrict legitimate usage. Consequently, we try very hard to be as flexible as possible and trust in people to use good judgment.

Yes, that attitude is why I like y'all so much. But are you drawing the line between what's legitimate and what's exploitative based on who's doing it?

The flip side of trusting people to use good judgement is realizing that they're at different levels of competence/maturity/knowledge, and trying to educate novices. There's 3 pieces to that:

a) Automatically detecting obviously bad behavior when you can
b) documenting such examples for others to be aware of
c) Pointing people to it and giving them a chance to change before shooting them down.

..

I have a talent for killing servers :), but all I did this time was to run a non-gnu make on a gnu makefile. Is it reasonable it could have happened to anybody?

..

Is it ok to use rsync for uploading potentially gigabytes of data a few months down the road? If not I guess I have to go elsewhere.


Dammit, I just saw this and had my blood pressure go up again.
"We are a good company and we try our hardest to provide good services and good service to our members. So go ahead, make all the noise you want."
So that's all this is about, eh? There's nothing redeeming about my story, eh? If you can't tell the difference between feedback and libel I'm done here.
jdw Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:57 pm
Here's what happened:

We felt you overused our free trial. After two months, you had 0 (zero) functioning websites, but you had used quite a bit of ssh access and were specifically asking for more. I objected and (politely and courteously) ended your free trial. You were told that if you wanted ssh-only service, you would need to obtain it elsewhere.

Perhaps that was the correct assessment and perhaps it was not.

If you felt it was not, you certainly could have said "Hey, I think there's been a mistake, could you take a second look at what I am doing while I explain my strange behavior?" (Which might or might not have led to a different outcome.)

This happened at 3:30 in the morning, after I had spent over an hour trying to understand what you were using our service to do. You weren't hosting any sites, so it's not like we caused you any downtime, but even so I waited around for another half hour, in case you were going to reply with something to that effect right away. (Not that you had to, just that you might.)

But you did not. By the time I saw this again this morning, you were already off telling anyone who would listen about how you were "executed."

It is true we don't want people in general signing up just to tie up ssh resources without using the service for its intended purpose. If anyone is considering signing up for our service to do that, then they absolutely should be warned away. But that really hasn't ever been a problem, except in this case.

I would also say that we don't, in general, want people as members who gleefully post public temper tantrums about problems instead of trying to resolve them. Who would?


jdw Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:23 pm
In the interests of full disclosure, I have discovered the following:

Apparently, you did respond very quickly (if confrontationally). The email headers say you sent the "judge, jury, and executioner" email you posted on your site at 3:32am, but we did not receive it until 11:40am, nearly four hours after your post here in the forum glorifying your public behavior.

Possibly that's due to the email upgrades we've been making, or graylisting, or just random email latency. If it was on our end, then I apologize for that.

I can't say what might have been different if you had waited for a response rather than proceeding the way you did.


That's something, I suppose.

I thought my email was very mild from my perspective. And from the tone of your previous mail it was reasonable to assume y'all were done with the issue. It felt unsatisfactory because I wasn't sure what I'd been doing wrong. The only reason I went public -- first here and then on reddit -- was to make sense of things. And I did achieve that. Hopefully y'all got something out of this whole experience too.

And thanks as well, pj.

What I lost was not 2 cents. What I lost -- abruptly -- was access to something I'd been working on intensely for over a day, without so much as a question. And all because I asked for support. Oliver Twist all over again.

I realize I'm to blame. All I wanted was a slight tilt of the head that jeff was too.


nobody Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:50 am

First of all, I've noticed that jdw and other NFSN staff have gotten progressively crankier in recent years. The unique thing about this service is that it is cheap *and* it is technically-advanced (come on, they offer emacs and lisp in their ssh environment, cripes). Many excellent hackers, particularly those in the FOSS world are, um, cheap. So those two sets-- cheap and hackers-- overlap quite a bit, and that seems to be for whom the service is designed. That's why I love it, personally, anyway: the very unique combination of hacker-friendly and insanely cheap is the perfect hoster for advancing the goals of free/open software.

But one problem is that there are people in the "cheap" circle in the Venn diagram, who are nowhere near intersecting with the "hacker" circle. That's a support drain and I have seen the effect it has had on the NFSN support staff's attitude. Used to be, you asked a stupid question, you got a polite answer that assumed you're a smart person who had his head momentarily up his arse. Nowadays, after probably answering thousands of dumb questions, they're more likely to give you an impatient or annoyed answer. I don't know of any way around this, other than to develop a thicker skin.

The other problem is that there are people way over in the extreme end of the "cheap" corner who aren't just looking to get something for an excellent price, but are looking to get something for *nothing*. I'd imagine that NFSN's prices draw such people out of the woodwork. NFSN is a business. I've run businesses before, and made the mistake of offering services for too low a price too, and I can tell you that no other experience can make you more cynical (and even hostile) than a rush of people literally trying to steal from you. It's pretty ugly to be a part of such a mob, but it's *really* ugly to watch one coming at you from the other side. I don't expect anyone who hasn't been in business to understand exactly what it's like, but trust me, it ain't pretty.

My hope at this point is that NFSN staff haven't gotten *too* jaded. It's a common problem with customer-service burnout. After a while, it becomes hard *not* to assume that anyone asking a stupid question really *is* a moron, or that anyone doing something oddball is really trying to abuse your service or cheat you in some way. The only thing I can suggest is, take a vacation. But if you're answering support requests at 3:30AM, and trying to make a living by offering trial accounts for 2 cents each, then a vacation is probably right out.

From a customer standpoint, the best way to avoid this is to simply *ask* first. This is what I do. "Hey, is it OK if I do such-and-so or thus-and-such on your service?" Every time I've asked, even recently, I've gotten a polite reply, anywhere from "Of course, that's fine" to "No, please don't do that", and often in both cases accompanied by a good deal of elaboration or alternatives.

The damn shame here is, if akkartik had either sent a support request or posted something on these forums, saying, "Look, I have this C CGI code on Linux, I need to port it to BSD to run it on your service, I have the trial account, blah blah", this whole conflict could have been avoided, his code would be running, his service would be humming, and everybody'd be happy. And, actually *paying* $5 into the service is an excellent show of goodwill if you're trying to do something complicated (I mean, come on $5 is too much? How about $2, then?). If jdw really spent an hour "trying to understand" what was happening on a 2 cent trial account, then he probably pissed away way too much valuable time on that 2-cent account. Wouldn't that irk you too? Speaking of which: instead of wasting that hour, I'd suggest spending 1 minute to write an email asking, "So, what exactly are you trying to use our service to do?". Finally, if you're answering support emails at 3:30AM, then *go to sleep*, and don't actually *send* the replies until after re-reading them the following morning.

So, let's everybody be nice now, OK? I rely on this service a great deal, and I'd like to see it continue for a long time. If I were doing something funky on a 2-cent account, and it either didn't work or I got bumped for doing it, I wouldn't do more than 2 cents worth of complaining.

I hope I didn't insult the rest of the NFSN staff who have been consistently and exceptionally helpful and friendly. They're great. Looking back through forum threads here and emails, it's only jdw that tends seems to have gotten more curt on occasion, i.e. in this particular thread, and, with good justification as I noted above.


..


Last updated Mon Nov 27 15:27:18 CST 2006
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